The West Block – Episode 24, Season 12 – National | 24CA News
THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 24, Season 12
Sunday, March 5, 2023
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister,
Communications Security Establishment
Politics Panel:
Stephanie Levitz, The Toronto Star; and Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail
Location:
Ottawa, ON
Mercedes Stephenson: Is Ottawa doing sufficient to let you know what overseas international locations like China are doing to intervene in our democracy?
The opposition says completely not. Prime Minister Trudeau says his authorities is on prime of it. So what’s the reality?
I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.
With allegations flying about China’s medaling, we lower via the political noise. Two prime officers, who served underneath Justin Trudeau within the Privy Council Office and with Canada’s Signals Intelligence Agency, reply questions on the specter of overseas interference and what will be completed.
And our inside politics panel weighs in on the prime minister’s response to questions.
Stephanie Levitz, The Toronto Star: “Justin Trudeau has ducked more questions than there have been spy balloons shot down by NORAD over this one, really.”
Mercedes Stephenson: And, requires a public inquiry.
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail: He’s resisting efforts for a nationwide—a public inquiry, which there needs to be.
Mercedes Stephenson: Questions about China interfering in Canada’s democracy and medaling within the 2019 and 2021 federal elections have been swirling round Parliament Hill for months now, however the subject has actually been heating up over the previous week.
The a lot anticipated Rosenberg Report got here out, noting senior civil servants discovered there was overseas interference within the 2021 election however that it was not vital sufficient to have an effect on the legitimacy of the outcomes. And parliamentarians grilled senior nationwide safety officers about who knew what, when, on China’s interference in Canada’s democracy.
There weren’t lots of solutions, however the committee did go a advice for a public inquiry.
If you’re questioning what all of this implies, you’re not alone. So we’ve introduced in two former senior public servants to speak about this.
Joining me now could be former Privy Council clerk, Michael Wernick and former Communications and Security Establishment assistant deputy minister, Artur Wilczynski. Thank you each for becoming a member of us.
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: You are each specialists on how authorities works and intelligence, so we wished to place a few of these inquiries to you. The first huge one is belief, I feel. Canadians are questioning. What is the reality in all of this? We heard the prime minister say on Friday, mainly the whole lot is ok once more. Sure there are considerations, however the whole lot is ok.
Let’s begin with Michael. Is the whole lot tremendous with regards to overseas interference?
Michael Wernick, Former Clerk of the Privy Council: Well I feel one of many driving points right here is retaining the boldness of Canadians, belief of Canadians in not simply elections however their political establishments, their democracy, in politicians. So the problem is way broader than the place it began just a few weeks in the past about China’s position in a particular election. I feel we do now have a difficulty about retaining Canadians belief of their democratic course of.
Mercedes Stephenson: And how do you assume that must be addressed?
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: So I feel transparency is important and I feel transparency is one thing that we are able to do extra of throughout the safety intelligence group. But I feel as Michael stated, you realize, restoring Canadians belief in all establishments of our democracy are vital. So there are two components of that. One, we now have to have an applicable retrospective have a look at what occurred and I feel we now have some actually vital establishments in Canada that may assist us try this. Things just like the nationwide safety and intelligence committee of parliamentarians that particularly was created to deal with these sorts of issues, and the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency. Both of those organizations have been lately created by Parliament. They have a job to take a look at this. They have the skillset, the tools and the classification wanted to take a look at intelligence. But then we have to look ahead. What can authorities establishments and leaders do to revive Canadians’ confidence in our democratic establishments and to be prepared for the evolving menace of overseas interference in Canada.
Mercedes Stephenson: And the fact is there could possibly be an election any time. We are in a minority scenario and it will not be the NDP who pulls the rug. It could possibly be Justin Trudeau deciding this file’s getting too sizzling, and it looks like there’s nonetheless not lots of solutions. And to your level, Artur about transparency, why do you assume it’s that we now have all these senior authorities officers and we hold listening to that’s labeled. That’s labeled. Obviously a few of it’s labeled, however you have got intelligence businesses leaking info to journalists as a result of they’re so involved, is what these sources are telling us, about what’s happening. What ought to we all know that you realize out of your time in authorities about what this interference seems like and the way carefully intelligence businesses are taking note of it?
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: Well to begin with, there’s not a black and white definition of what’s interference or inappropriate interference. We’re an open nation and there are many embassies on this city, and overseas corporations, and journalists and advocates, making an attempt to affect the insurance policies of the Government of Canada and there are many Canadians who’ve sturdy views about worldwide affairs. There’s nothing mistaken with that. What the concern is, is tampering within the precise processes of elections in order that that you just aren’t getting the free and truthful final result, which is, you realize, expresses the desire of Canadians. But as I hold saying, it’s extra than simply elections. There is all the interval in between, the conduct of political events, authorities establishments and so forth. It’s a broad set of points. And the entrance line of it, nowadays, is disinformation and misinformation campaigns. And they arrive from all corners of the world. So there’s extra to it than only one nation and there’s extra to it than simply, you realize, brokers of overseas governments which can be overtly working for them. So it’s not that simple to detect and, you realize, the instruments for coping with it, you realize, would typically land in regulation enforcement. I don’t assume all people understands that our safety intelligence businesses accumulate info, and crucial info, however the choices about whether or not to press fees or arrest anyone, arrest with an impartial police and an impartial crown lawyer’s, they set a really, very excessive threshold for that.
Michael Wernick, Former Clerk of the Privy Council: And that’s why there’s lots of, I feel, concern about unlawful disclosures, is as a result of these disclosures have the potential impact of impeding the power of regulation enforcement, impeding intelligence businesses to really entry the knowledge that’s required with a purpose to assist mitigate the chance posed by overseas interference. Sources could possibly be compromised. Individuals who’re—who work within the area will be compromised, and the investigations themselves will be compromised by this sort of leak. And on the finish of the day, what nationwide safety intelligence businesses are there for, is to supply info to coverage makers in order that they then in flip could make choices which can be within the nationwide curiosity. If these are hindered, if that potential is hindered by disclosures, the—you realize, the power to see what’s occurring, the power to then mitigate the dangers to Canadian communities, to Canadian establishments is hampered and that’s not in our curiosity.
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: I’ll simply use an analogy that any journalist would acknowledge. You know the significance of confidential sources to a journalist and you know the way simple it might be typically to triangulate and determine oh, that have to be the supply. And so the identical in safety and intelligence, there’s a balancing act that you just want sufficient transparency to retain that belief and confidence. But for those who go too far, you then reveal assortment strategies and sources, and you’ll compromise your future potential to maintain gathering that info.
Mercedes Stephenson: And it appears like among the frustration from the intelligence sources we’re working with, is that they don’t really feel they’re being heard or that these investigations are being taken, and that’s clearly their notion. But I do need to ask you, Artur, once you have been at CSE, which a few of viewers won’t know what that’s. It’s our indicators intelligence company.
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: It’s our indicators intel company.
Mercedes Stephenson: So you may intercept not from Canadians however from overseas actors.
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: Correct.
Mercedes Stephenson: Emails, cellphone calls, web visitors. You’re monitoring all that, so you’ll see lots of dialogue about this. When you have been in your place there, how critical was overseas interference?
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: Foreign interference is a completely key intelligence precedence for the Government of Canada. I feel that the integrity of our democratic establishments is a core nationwide curiosity, and intelligence priorities are set by what our nationwide pursuits are. So, you realize, our position throughout the Communication Security Establishment is that overseas intelligence part, to look outdoors of Canada, to take a look at what the intents and capabilities are of hostile actors. And it’s one of many the explanation why the Communication Security Establishment each in 2019 and in ’21, issued a menace evaluation. What are the threats to Canadian elections, as a result of it was vital to have that type of transparency with Canadians to inform them to be aware? To inform political events that they should defend their know-how and their knowledge and their cyber programs, as a result of it’s persistent, it’s rising and it’s turning into extra subtle. And I feel that because of this trying ahead when it comes to not simply understanding what occurred in 2019 and 2021, that’s vital. But how will we proceed to have this dialog in a clear means in order that Canadians know what are the safety businesses doing to guard the electoral programs? What are officers of Parliament like? You know the elections commissioner and the top of Elections Canada, what are they doing? What are political events doing to make sure that we now have the appropriate calibrated method to mitigate dangers to our democracy? It’s foundational and it’s ongoing.
Mercedes Stephenson: The Australian spy chief got here out and gave a very clear speech about a few of what they’ve been doing. The Americans are typically extra clear. There definitely appears to be a push or a hope for that. I don’t know if it’ll work in Canada. But trying ahead into what wants to alter, you talked about, Michael, in regards to the nomination course of and the in between in elections. I feel lots of viewers hear election interference and what they’re imagining is direct makes an attempt to affect voters, or to alter a vote versus to position individuals earlier than an election occurs, or to place individuals in rooms that may overhear issues or affect issues. It’s a tricky factor to root out, however there are some issues the federal government might do from the general public inquiry to attempt to unravel a few of this, to overseas affect legal guidelines or overseas brokers registry, having been able the place you could possibly see this sort of intelligence and the way authorities works. What do you assume must occur?
Michael Wernick, Former Clerk of the Privy Council: Well we’re having a debate about whether or not to have an inquiry or retrospective train. I’d not have it solely about China and I wouldn’t have it solely about elections. If we’re going to do it, let’s do it correctly and canopy the entire spectrum of potential interference. My level on the inquiry is we don’t have to attend a 12 months and a half for its findings. I can let you know the findings already. It will suggest that we take the Australian and UK fashions of overseas interference laws and registration and convey them to Canada. So there’s nothing stopping our flesh pressers from engaged on that laws in parallel. The authorities might decide to desk a invoice like that earlier than the summer season break and our flesh pressers might debate it, amend it and make it higher, and go it by the top of the 12 months.
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: I additionally assume that transparency via that type of course of is vital to make it a systemic method for our safety intelligence businesses as effectively. I feel having a dialog in regards to the position of intelligence in the midst of a disaster just isn’t a productive or knowledgeable dialog. I feel that the type of train that could possibly be a little bit bit extra deliberative, that makes concrete suggestions and that on the finish of the day, safety intelligence businesses in Canada are extra clear with what they do, how they do it, why they do it. I feel will present Canadians with the boldness they want, that our organizations are there to guard them and to guard Canadian democracies so that folks know that after they do go into the poll sales space that the—that their vote is free and truthful, and that they will have faith that the programs of our democracy are there of their pursuits.
Mercedes Stephenson: Michael and Artur, thanks each very a lot for becoming a member of us at present. A very attention-grabbing dialog and we look ahead to talking to you each once more quickly.
Michael Wernick, Former Clerk of the Privy Council: Thanks for asking us.
Artur Wilczynski, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Communications Security Establishment: Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, the Opposition is looking for a public inquiry. How will allegations of China’s medaling play out when the House resumes?
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: MPs are again in Ottawa tomorrow after a two week break and you may anticipate the prime minister shall be going through opposition questions on how his authorities has responded to overseas interference allegations within the final two federal elections.
Opposition chief Pierre Poilievre says Justin Trudeau ought to name a public inquiry.
Pierre Poilievre, Opposition Leader: “We can’t simply bury it behind closed doors and have it in secret, while Canadians are left in the dark, potentially with another election interfered in before the results of the commission come out. The results of the commission and the regular testimony must be public.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Justin Trudeau has resisted requires an inquiry saying his authorities is taking the problem significantly.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “We have—the process that we put in place that is professional, independent people, working with the public service, to make sure thresholds are met.”
Mercedes Stephenson: To discuss all of this, I’m joined by our inside politics panel. Bob Fife is the Ottawa bureau chief with The Globe and Mail; and Stephanie Levitz is with The Toronto Star.
A giant week on the overseas interference and China file. Steph, how do you assume the Liberals have dealt with this?
Stephanie Levitz, The Toronto Star: You know Justin Trudeau has ducked extra questions than there have been spy balloons shot down by NORAD over this one, actually. And…
Mercedes Stephenson: That’s saying one thing.
Stephanie Levitz, The Toronto Star: And that’s saying one thing, as a result of he’s been requested quite a few instances, over quite a few days, to elucidate himself. To discuss how a lot info he had, to defend particular MPs which have been accused of being immediately influenced, by identify, by the Chinese state and he geese each time, which leads us to marvel why can’t Canadians have extra info from the prime minister. And I observe that it’s attention-grabbing as a result of he doesn’t even trot out the nationwide safety line, like I can’t remark as a result of it’s a matter of nationwide safety. He simply geese and weaves and bobs round it. And that’s including—growing gasoline, I feel, to the political hearth round this as a result of maybe with some measure of further transparency, we might get some solutions and that might see among the strain fall off.
Mercedes Stephenson: Bob, why do you assume they received’t present these fundamental solutions? We’ve requested a number of instances about what he knew what allegations towards a Liberal MP? That Liberal MP denies these allegations, however the prime minister received’t affirm or deny whether or not or not he knew about these allegations and if he didn’t, you realize, it might be helpful for him perhaps to say he didn’t. But perhaps that throws employees underneath the bus. I imply, what’s the calculation right here?
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail: And he’s been everywhere in the map. When these tales began to come back out, based mostly on CSIS paperwork by the best way, he stated his very first thing was CSIS seek out these individuals. Not that I—not saying I needs to be—we must always actually be involved about it. Hunt down these people who find themselves leaking this type of stuff. And then he stated effectively there’s nothing to see right here as a result of we’ve at all times talked about earlier than that there was interference in election campaigns. And then he stated oh, the political events are being partisan and so they’re undermining democracy. And then once you did—Global did the story about Liberal MP Han Dan, he resorted to racism that that is racism by doing this. And now—and now he’s saying that there’s—there’s completely no—he’s resisting efforts for a nationwide—a public inquiry, which there needs to be as a result of if in case you have a choose who holds public inquiry, he can see the key paperwork behind closed doorways. He can have subpoena powers to name CSIS officers, or any nationwide safety particular person, or the cupboard ministers. And one of the best half about it—a few of it will likely be in public, some received’t be—one of the best half about it’s we’ll get suggestions to verify this doesn’t occur earlier than the following election marketing campaign as a result of it’s a very critical subject.
Mercedes Stephenson: Stephanie, do you assume they’re going to bow to the strain for a public inquiry on this?
Stephanie Levitz, The Toronto Star: It will depend on how a lot strain the Opposition is prepared to position, actually. I imply, it is a minority Parliament. The Opposition, sure they moved a movement and voted a movement at committee that there must be a public inquiry. That just isn’t a binding movement on the federal government. Fair sufficient. However, they’re the Opposition of Parliament. If they want—I imply the opposition, you realize, events. If they want to hijack the federal government’s agenda, in the event that they want to maintain the federal government’s ft to the fireplace, I don’t know, refuse to vote on issues, filibuster at committee. They’ve acquired a number of little instruments at their disposal. They might needle away on the prime minister on this one till he bows and does one thing about it. And I feel that there most likely are indicators inside, you realize, the PMO and elsewhere which can be beginning to emerge that they’re delicate to the notion that the belief in authorities, which was already fragile to start with—allow us to not neglect, proper—is being undermined by this. Not essentially there’s the problem, after all, of overseas states undermining confidence, however there’s the general public belief in authorities. And the general public belief in authorities is sacrosanct right here. This is about elections. This is about democracy. And if Trudeau is critical in saying all of the issues that he stated, they need to be pondering a little bit bit about is there another layer they will placed on right here that restores public belief to have individuals consider in what they’re saying, which is the don’t fear, we’re on prime of it. We know that is occurring and we’re engaged on it.
Mercedes Stephenson: Bob, the place do you see it going?
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail: Well, look, proper now it’s—their—the wagon’s round—they’ve put the wagons round their prime minister. They don’t know—actually understand how to reply to this, however there are some easy issues that they will do. One, maintain a nationwide—a public inquiry. Get a revered choose, anyone that every one the opposition events will comply with. Bring in a overseas agent registry, which is the Australians and the United States have, which implies that lobbyists and former politicians and attorneys who—or individuals who work within the media who could also be being paid by the Chinese state or Chinese state enterprises, you’ll know who they’re. Then you must change the CSIS Act in order that CSIS will be way more out—outgoing about warning the general public about points like overseas interference. And thirdly, change the legal code to make overseas interference a legal violation. Those are options that a number of people who find themselves safety specialists as you realize, have advocated for this and they don’t need to do it. And the opposition retains saying you realize they don’t need to do it? Because these doc present that China favoured a Liberal minority authorities and so they wished to defeat Conservative MPs.
Mercedes Stephenson: Steph, one of many issues that I hold listening to is, and we all know from Bob’s reporting in regards to the allegations that the, you realize, Chinese diplomatic was bragging about making an attempt to affect so there can be a Liberal minority authorities. I’ve heard from some Conservatives as effectively that they’re getting strain to cease speaking about China. They have been late to the general public inquiry cal. It was the NDP who put it on the market first. And what a few of these political insiders say is look, there’s overseas interference from extra than simply China. There’s from different international locations as effectively. And so there’s resistance kind the 2 foremost political events to make adjustments as a result of proper now they’re mainly run as non-public golf equipment. I don’t imply that as an insult. They’re actually run as non-public golf equipment, and the nomination course of and lots of the stuff that goes on the place you may get concerned and manipulate behind the scenes, they don’t need anyone taking a look at it. Do you assume there’s political will to create not simply transparency from the intelligence businesses which we completely appear to wish extra of but additionally accountability for the events on this?
Stephanie Levitz, The Toronto Star: No. I imply, I feel political events, such as you say, they’re a closed store. I imply, simply take into consideration on the floor of it. They’re not topic to entry to info regulation. They maintain a bunch of knowledge about individuals and so they don’t have to inform anyone what it’s. Their financials, you realize, are clear to some extent, however typically fairly opaque. I imply, I feel with the Conservatives, what they’re delicate to, and this dates again some years now, is that the stance that they’ve taken on China, has alienated voters. And they realize it. They’ve heard it. They’ve been advised it. It’s past type of the second, you realize, the piece of Chinese interference maybe costing them votes. They themselves are costing themselves votes and so they don’t know easy methods to sq. that circle. How do they undertake a overseas coverage line that could be in step with Conservative ideology because it pertains to China however not alienating voters within the course of? And that’s the factor they’re combating. But the attention-grabbing factor about nomination contest, you realize, I feel everyone knows, proper? These are actually arduous fought, typically. Right? This is the place the grassroots, the grind of politics actually occurs and you’ll assume to some extent that folk can be actually on guard there for interference. And so it’s an attention-grabbing query about how political events internally would possibly select to beef up their very own, as a result of that’s a lacking bit in all this. You hear among the questions popping out, proper? Where I’m ready for the political events to say okay, effectively listed below are the issues we’ve been doing as political events, to alter our course of, to make issues simpler, to make it extra clear. They’re not doing it. They don’t appear to outwardly be taking this significantly themselves at the same time as they stand within the House of Commons and yell and scream a few public inquiry. I imply, you realize, reviews lately, among the political events even turned down safety briefings through the election. So both they’re taking it significantly as a matter of nationwide safety, or they’re simply utilizing it to be a political soccer and I don’t assume that’s the appropriate method both.
Mercedes Stephenson: Bob, given what Stephanie simply stated, the prime minister means that this could go earlier than parliamentary committees. A whole lot of of us would say that’s the appropriate place for it.
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail: Well that’s not the appropriate place…
Mercedes Stephenson: Why not?
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail: First of all, as a result of we’ve seen the committee. It—it will get into partisanship, ridiculous questions, the Liberals making an attempt to not present solutions, filibustering. The Conservatives serious about scoring partisan factors, not making an attempt to get on the reality. And once we’ve—the CSIS gives doc to the committee that they’ve requested are all clean. They don’t discuss what we all know are in these paperwork, which is social—disinformation campaigns that make—that say false issues about candidates, money transfers to candidates, hiring of scholars—learning right here, worldwide college students—learning right here to assist most popular candidates. Tax—individuals contributing cash to events after which they get repaid again minus the tax receipt that they get from the federal government. Those are actually, actually critical points. You’re not going to get that in a parliamentary inquiry. You will get it in a public inquiry.
Mercedes Stephenson: Really critical points and we’ll see if these requires a public inquiry end in one within the coming weeks. Steph and Bob, thanks for becoming a member of us.
Robert Fife, The Globe and Mail: Thank you.
Stephanie Levitz, The Toronto Star: Thanks.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, when will Canadians begin to see a drop in rising meals costs?
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one very last thing, the price of residing is placing strain on many Canadians who need to make actually robust selections about their funds. Interest charges and skyrocketing meals costs are two of the most important components in Canadians’ budgets proper now.
On Wednesday, we’ll discover out whether or not the Bank of Canada will maintain its 4.5 per cent rate of interest. And that exact same day, the presidents and CEOs of the most important grocery chains in Canada like Loblaws and Metro, are going to be within the sizzling seat at parliamentary committee, answering questions over whether or not their inflating grocery costs. It’s a uncommon week when politics and your pocketbook will line up.
That’s our present for at present. We’ll see you subsequent Sunday on The West Block. Thanks for hanging out with us.
