The West Block – Episode 27, Season 12 – National | 24CA News
THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 27, Season 12
Sunday, March 26, 2023
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
David Cohen, U.S. Ambassador to Canada
Joanna Chiu, Toronto Star
Cheuk Kwan, Toronto Association for Democracy in China
Location:
Ottawa, ON
Mercedes Stephenson: Mission achieved: U.S. President Joe Biden delivers a really feel good message to Canadians.
I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.
U.S. President Joe Biden: “Bonjour, Canada.”
Mercedes Stephenson: In a two-day go to to Ottawa, President Biden and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau cemented their shut relationship and pledged to work collectively on some key areas.
The U.S. Ambassador to Canada is right here with Washington’s view.
And, sending a sign to China after per week of much more revelations about Chinese election interference.
U.S. President Joe Biden wrapped up his go to to Ottawa with a robust pitch for creating even nearer ties between Canada and the United States. In his speech to Parliament, Biden described the long run as stuffed with prospects.
U.S. President Joe Biden: “Nothing is beyond our capacity. We can do anything. We have to never forget. We must never doubt our capacity. Canada and the United States can do big things. We stand together, do them together, rise together. We’re going to right the future together, I promise you.”
Mercedes Stephenson: So what does that future appear like in actual phrases, and what are the Americans searching for from Canada in terms of huge ticket gadgets like clear power expertise, vital minerals, the Arctic and defence?
For extra on all of this, I’m joined by U.S. Ambassador to Canada David Cohen. Ambassador, so good to have you ever again.
David Cohen, U.S. Ambassador to Canada: It’s nice to be right here. Good morning, everybody.
Mercedes Stephenson: What a go to. I imply you would actually really feel the power in that final clip. Everybody appeared very pleased with it. I do know these visits, regardless of what we see are usually not a one or two-day occasion. They are months upfront and months after. What do you are feeling the most important success of this go to was?
David Cohen, U.S. Ambassador to Canada: So for me, the most important success is the important message that Joe Biden was capable of ship in particular person, stay in a number of audiences and that’s the partnership and the connection between Canada and the United States is longstanding, it’s sturdy and it’s going to proceed. It’s going to proceed and it’s going to develop.
As the President mentioned in one other clip in that speech, the United States will probably be there for Canada. Period. And I feel the message of rebuilding the belief that used to exist between Canada and the United States, Canada’s a part of the United States. I feel in a single go to, I feel the President kind of strengthened it, locked it down, turned the important thing, moved onto the subsequent level.
The supplementary message to that’s partnership. It’s our capacity to perform a lot once we work collectively. One of my favorite Joe Biden strains, which is basically from the 2021 digital go to is when Canada and the United States work collectively, we’re stronger. We’re higher. And we do higher and the world does higher. And I feel he had an opportunity to ship that message as effectively, and I do suppose individuals—I do suppose when he left, I do know our crew right here on the bottom, the White House crew felt energized and I feel Canadians felt energized by this. And there’s nothing like having somebody who’s as genuine and real a communicator as Joe Biden really talking these phrases stay and in Canada.
Mercedes Stephenson: I feel numerous Canadians really feel, clearly, the connection with the Biden presidency is far more secure than with the Trump presidency and that there was a heat to Canada however possibly a lukewarm. This go to felt to me just like the tone was altering. I do know there’s been frustration from the Americans over issues like defence spending and that Canada has been saying they’re doing extra to attempt to handle that, nevertheless it nearly felt like there was a shift within the relationship again to nearer—to what we noticed, for instance, between Justin Trudeau and Barack Obama. Do you suppose that that’s correct that the connection has turn out to be nearer?
David Cohen, U.S. Ambassador to Canada: So I don’t—I don’t have sufficient of a private window right here. I’ve bought 15 months of non-public window. I understand how strongly Joe Biden feels about Canada and about how strongly he feels about his relationship with Prime Minister Trudeau. I do know that from the method the place I used to be contemplating what job I would wish to do within the administration and my conversations with him about how he felt about Canada. So I don’t suppose there’s any change in the best way Joe Biden feels about this, whether or not there’s a change within the notion of Canadians as to the closest within the relationship. I feel there’s been—I feel there’s clearly been a way, partially as a result of Joe Biden hasn’t been right here—so I feel there’s clearly been a way of does Joe Biden actually care about Canada? Do these phrases that he says type the United States, are they genuine and actual? Do these phrases that David Cohen as ambassador says, are they actually the best way that Joe Biden feels? I feel if you are able to do one thing in a single go to and a collection of speeches and interactions, and visuals on TV, I feel this go to put that to relaxation. Joe Biden cares about Canada. The United States cares about Canada. This nation is our most essential good friend, ally and companion, and having Joe Biden on Canadian soil reiterating that and given individuals the chance to see the best way he interacts, the friendliness of his interactions with Prime Minister Trudeau. Whether it’s a change in the best way the United States feels or only a hammering house of the significance of Canada to the United States, this go to achieved that message.
Mercedes Stephenson: One of the issues that we now have seen post-COVID and with the issues about Russia and China is this idea of friendshoring, that you really want your provide chains to be with pleasant nations so that you simply’re capable of entry them and don’t end up lower off from power, lower off from automotive components, lower off type very important issues for the economic system. I observed there was numerous dialogue about having a safe provide chain and the way a lot each the President and Prime Minister appear to need that to be between Canada and the United States. They are very actual challenges with the quantity of producing. We nonetheless depend on from China, realistically in Canada and the U.S., virtually. What does that elevated closeness between provide chains and the economies appear like because it performs out going ahead?
David Cohen, U.S. Ambassador to Canada: So the combination of the provision chains, the resilience of the provision chains, which by the best way it’s greater than cars—we’ve now injected vital minerals and significant mineral provide chains into this dialog—is amazingly advanced. There are numerous piece components to it and a few of these locations like vital minerals, China has a giant head begin and the way will we catch up? So I’m a believer within the one step at a time strategy, which is you possibly can’t simply get up the subsequent morning and say our provide chains are built-in, we’re now ready to tackle China and to be aggressive in each means with China by way of our alliance on Chinese manufacturing in our provide chains. You need to chew these off separately. So we now have this new activity pressure, this built-in power activity pressure, which is targeted on creating built-in provide chains within the power area and empowering the power transition to deliberately a one-year activity pressure, as a result of we are not looking for this to be a kind of efforts that has a limiteless time horizon to it. We’re attempting to create the sense of urgency that we expect this believes.
Mercedes Stephenson: I observed there was much less public dialogue about China this time than in a few of the earlier conferences. There was quite a bit about Russia and what’s taking place in Ukraine and the atrocities there. China was much less of a point out apart from when at one level the President slipped talking to Parliament and known as Canada, China and mentioned, “Well I guess I know what I’m thinking about.” I’m curious to know, what was the dialogue about China behind the scenes?
David Cohen, U.S. Ambassador to Canada: So, I imply China was a dialogue. It is roofed within the joint assertion, the significance—and by the best way, China is essential in a few senses within the defence area with the balloons and the crucial that Chinese and Russian funding within the Arctic and in potential intelligence gathering, potential offensive capability within the Arctic and the implications that that has for NORAD funding, kind of reinforcing the necessity for particular and essential commitments for NORAD modernization. So, that’s a part of the joint assertion. China additionally comes up within the business set—in a business setting the place discussions and there’s a paragraph within the joint assertion about the necessity to acknowledge the modified strategy of China towards the West and towards North America. And so it was a dialogue. It is roofed within the joint assertion, however I feel it was lined in an acceptable means, which is as a part of bigger tales, growing our competitiveness total in a global economic system, defence, versus choosing at China. And I—by the best way, that is the United States and Canada was no mild between the 2 nations as to the significance of taking up China, competing towards them extra successfully, calling them out once they undertake non-rules primarily based commerce practices, and I’ve to say, if I can, I hate disagreeing with you as a result of I respect you a lot, but when I’m—that clip you confirmed was an incredible clip from the speech, however for me, the emotional punch within the intestine of the parliamentary speech was the 2 Michaels and the feedback that each the Prime Minister and the President made about that and concerning the management that Canada has performed with now 70 nations, attacking arbitrary detention. All of that was China directed, so that you kind of can’t go away the general impression of the go to with out realizing that Canada and the United States collectively are ready to tackle China when China must be taken on, to guard ourselves from a defence in a business capability.
Mercedes Stephenson: Ambassador, a really clear message. That’s on a regular basis we now have for at this time, however I’m certain we’ll be again and speaking about many of those points once more. We all the time love having you on the present.
David Cohen, U.S. Ambassador to Canada: Well nice, I recognize being on. And good luck with the price range this coming week.
Mercedes Stephenson: [Chuckles] Thanks. We’re going to want it.
David Cohen, U.S. Ambassador to Canada: Right.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, some Chinese Canadians say they’ve been warning about Chinese medalling and authorities intimidation for years. They’re questioning why Ottawa is barely paying consideration now.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: There has been numerous news on the Chinese interference and affect file up to now week.
On Tuesday, we realized about particular rapporteur David Johnston’s mandate, given to him by the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff Katie Telford agreed to testify earlier than a House committee about what the federal government knew relating to Beijing’s election interference. But that wasn’t sufficient for the opposition events, who voted for an inquiry to be known as instantly.
A day after MP Han Dong resigned from the Liberal caucus to clear his title, following revelations he had an unsanctioned dialog with the Chinese Consul-General, discussing the 2 Michaels.
Han Don, Liberal MP: “I want to assure Mr. Michael Spavor and Mr. Michael Kovrig and their families that I did nothing to cause them any harm. The allegations made against me are as false as the ones made against you.”
Mercedes Stephenson: On Friday, the Prime Minister was requested about Han Dong at a news convention with President Biden.
Unidentified Speaker: Do you consider he advocated for the delayed launch of the 2 Michaels?
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau? “First of all, Han gave a strong speech in the House that I recommend people listen to, and we fully accept that he is stepping away from the Liberal caucus in order to vigorously contest these allegations.”
Mercedes Stephenson: While speaking about China’s efforts to affect and intrude in our democracy may appear new to some, for a lot of within the Chinese-Canadian group this has been a actuality that they’ve warned about for years.
Joining me now to speak about that is Cheuk Kwan, co-chair of the Toronto Association for Democracy in China; and Joanna Chiu from the Toronto Star, she’s additionally the writer of the guide China Unbound.
Thank you each a lot for becoming a member of us at this time.
Cheuk Kwan, Toronto Association for Democracy in China: Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: Cheuk, I’d like to begin with you. What is your response to the Han Dong story? What do you make of all of it?
Cheuk Kwan, Toronto Association for Democracy in China: Well, we had been form of puzzled why he would do what he did, if that’s certainly what he did and it’s confirmed, then I might say—I might speculate that he may need simply wished to domesticate friendship with the Chinese Consul and possibly telling the opposite aspect what they wish to hear.
Mercedes Stephenson: And do you suppose that there’s some context round there that folks must be enthusiastic about, Joanna, once they’re listening to these tales. It clearly shocked lots of people. Han Dong very clearly denies that this occurred. There was a dialog. We know that. The Prime Minister’s Office has confirmed there was a dialog nevertheless it’s kind of the questions on what was in it, and a part of that has developed right into a dialogue about whether or not there’s sufficient nuance in reporting about Chinese interference in Canada.
Joanna Chiu, Toronto Star: Yeah. I’ve a bit popping out really, attempting to determine the authorized definitions of a few of these phrases that we’re speaking about, like international affect and agent, and in the event you’re a proxy for a international state. And a part of the problems in Canada are definitions both don’t exist as a result of we don’t have a concrete set of legal guidelines on international affect, or they’re totally different, or they’re even a bit contradictory. So the RCMP and CSIS have totally different definitions of what’s international affect. I feel Han Dong’s case, he’s within the scorching seat proper now however we should always do not forget that earlier studies, these leaks from, , spy paperwork say that at the very least 11 federal candidates had been probably supported with undeclared money donations by the Chinese Consulate and Han Dong reportedly was one in every of them. But beforehand, he mentioned that he had no concept that he had any kind of help from the Chinese Consulate that CSIS didn’t temporary him, that he was not knowledgeable. So I feel this case actually highlights the difficulties in a nuance of what international affect is, how international states act in Canada. It could possibly be true that you would be a goal however not understand it. If somebody is an effective menace actor, they might manipulate you so that you simply change your behaviours, pondering it’s out of your personal volition and that you’re not actually, voluntarily performing as a proxy for a international state. So that is actually difficult and I feel it’s a possibility for public schooling and probably gaps of their legal guidelines, somewhat than all the time pointing fingers or being fast to judgement on sure individuals. I feel Cheuk and I’ve seen on Twitter, some persons are unearthing photographs of occasions the place Chinese Consulate members have met with sure members of the Chinese-Canadian group and saying, “Oh, this must be something shady going on. They must be an agent.” But that simply proves they had been in the identical room. So hopefully we now have form of extra form of nuance and context round these conversations.
Mercedes Stephenson: Cheuk, you talked about that you simply suppose that a part of this may need been if Han Dong mentioned what he’s alleged to have mentioned by these CSIS sources that it could have been him simply saying it’s what the Chinese Consulate wished to listen to. Can you describe for us what a relationship like that might usually appear like? Would that form of a dialog be irregular? Is {that a} form of a dialog that you’d suppose is problematic to be having?
Cheuk Kwan, Toronto Association for Democracy in China: People from—Chinese individuals or individuals from China take—put numerous emphasis on [00:05:27] which is a relationship. So to try a Consulate General—Chinese Consul-General’s Consulate National Day occasion or Chinese New Year occasion, it’s not—actually not a—not a wrongdoing and definitely welcome. But there are additionally numerous cultural cues that possibly a few of us are usually not aware about, and these could possibly be a few of these cultural boundaries which might be—, they’re a gray space. So I’m not saying that Han Dong did something fallacious. I’m simply saying that we now have to watch out how we learn these alerts. And actually, as I identified earlier than, we’re simply coping with 10 per cent of the iceberg. We’re on the finish of the tip of the iceberg about federal electoral interference. There are numerous issues which have been happening beneath the water stage for a lot of, a few years by China by way of influencing, interfering and medalling in Canadian affairs, from the election of faculty board trustees, to the municipal mayors and councillors, to the provincial authorities and naturally, the federal authorities. So that is one thing that I feel we must be conscious that we’re not barking up the fallacious tree. We must be what’s beneath that iceberg and actually get a really feel and understanding of maybe the hazard of such China’s medalling in our affairs.
Mercedes Stephenson: Joanna, what does the spectrum appear like of affect and interference from kind of attempting to entice individuals and be pleasant, whether or not it’s taking them on journeys or going to occasions, attempting to affect their pondering, proper as much as what some members of the Chinese-Canadian group have described within the Uighur group of direct threats towards their household?
Joanna Chiu, Toronto Star: So I feel it’s essential to grasp simply current years in Canada earlier than the 2 Michaels had been taken, earlier than the Meng Wanzhou disaster, the overarching philosophy in Ottawa, throughout Canada was that it was good to pursue commerce and business of China as a lot as attainable and there was a justification I discovered in my analysis throughout the Western world that with simply mere contact with Liberal democracies by issues like business and commerce, China’s political system would by some means naturally evolve to turn out to be extra democratic, that its human rights circumstances would enhance. So some say it was form of a justification that was positively some say the case in Canada. I used to be in Beijing when Trudeau took his senior cupboard members over to China to attempt to get a free commerce take care of China. That was simply in 2017, so it’s very current that the principle aim of Ottawa was to have friendlier ties with China and behind the scenes, lots of people like Cheuk Kwan, who had been warning that a part of it could have been to affect a long time of affect on Canada’s political system that this was a good suggestion, that it was good to attempt to not communicate an excessive amount of about China’s human rights scenario, to attempt to be extra constructive as an alternative. This was a line that Beijing positively wished individuals to consider. And numerous this befell with constructive inducement. So I speak about carrots and sticks approaches, we study extra concerning the sticks these days as a result of extra Uighur, Tibetan, Hong Kong Chinese Canadians are speaking about how their household mates are frightened, that they don’t comply in the event that they don’t attempt to cooperate with China. But the carrot strategy, I feel remains to be a bigger slice of the pie of what China tries to do. So, , inviting even like fairly low stage politicians, metropolis councillors of smaller cities in Canada, to those very lavish VIP, all-expenses-paid journeys in China. And in the event you search for information, , politicians have been open that they’ve been enthusiastic about happening these journeys they usually’re actually, once they’re in China and even once they’re having a few of these paid receptions sponsored by the Chinese Consulate right here in Canada. They’re actually handled with numerous respect. It’s form of a playbook the place oh, you’re a good friend of China. You perceive China. Let’s get some business accomplished and this has been happening for a very long time, together with in the course of the Meng disaster. B.C. and different politicians had been criticized for planning and attempting to proceed these actions with China.
Mercedes Stephenson: Very attention-grabbing matter and one which I hope we are able to discuss to each of you about once more quickly. We’re out of time for at this time, however thanks a lot for taking the time to share your curiosity and perception with us on this matter.
Joanna Chiu, Toronto Star: Thanks for having us.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, what to observe for on this Tuesday’s federal price range.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: It’s time for one final thing. The federal price range comes down on Tuesday, the most important political occasion of the 12 months in Ottawa. This 12 months, the federal government is post-COVID spending however should now take care of financial uncertainties within the Canadian-American and international economies. They additionally need to strike a steadiness between promised fiscal restraint and the rising price of residing, paired with politically standard affordability applications for Canadians. Defence, clear power expertise and their take care of the NDP are all additionally must-haves on the agenda. We’ll have particular protection in our stay price range particular on Global News.
That’s our present for at this time. Thanks for hanging out with us, and I’ll see you subsequent week.
