The West Block – Episode 26, Season 13 – National | 24CA News
THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 26, Season 13
Sunday, March 10, 2024
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
Andris Sprūds, Latvian Defence Minister
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff
Location:
Ottawa Studio
Mercedes Stephenson: On this week’s present: how the Canadian Armed Forces are serving to stave off potential Russian aggression, and what our army wants to assist itself.
I’m Mercedes Stephenson, and The West Block begins now.
Canada’s largest worldwide deployment is in Latvia, a key location in a area weak to Russian aggression.
We discuss with the Latvian defence minister about new makes an attempt to strengthen its border with Russia. And as we put together to ship much more troops to Latvia, a dire warning in regards to the state of our army from Canada’s defence minister himself.
Bill Blair, Defence Minister: “More people have left than have entered. That is, frankly, it’s a death spiral for the Canadian Armed Forces.”
President Joe Biden: “We’ve made NATO stronger than ever. We welcomed Finland to the Alliance last year. [Applause] And just this morning, Sweden officially joined. Mr. Prime Minister, welcome to NATO, the strongest military alliance the world has ever seen.”
Mercedes Stephenson: That was President Biden on the State of the Union.
With NATO’s borders now increasing, do alliance international locations like Latvia, who share a border with Russia, really feel reassured.
Canadian troops are on the bottom within the small Baltic nation. In truth, it’s Canada’s largest army deployment of a couple of thousand troopers and it’s rising. It’s additionally a long run dedication for Canada, very similar to Germany was through the Cold War.
When the Liberal authorities is grilled over NATO spending, they typically level to the troops in Latvia for instance of Canada’s NATO contributions.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “We are renewing and expanding our contributions to Operation Reassurance. This includes increased financial and troops commitments that will scale up the Canadian led NATO battle group to a brigade by 2026.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Is it sufficient to discourage Russia, and do Canadian troops cancel out the necessity to spend extra on NATO? With extra on this, I’m joined by Latvia Defence Minister Andris Sprūds.
Minister Sprūds, thanks a lot for taking time throughout your go to to Canada, and welcome.
Andris Sprūds, Latvian Defence Minister: Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure. It’s a terrific privilege.
Mercedes Stephenson: Latvia is an unbelievable nation. I’ve had the pleasure of being there twice. Once when Canadian troops first deployed, after which once more proper after the battle began of Russian invading Ukraine. And one of many issues that actually struck me is it’s a nation that’s proper on the entrance line with Russia. You share a border. You share a border with Belarus, one other nation that helps Russia. So there’s great geographic vulnerability that the typical Canadian doesn’t really feel or expertise. What is the scenario proper now in Latvia by way of concern about that border with Russia and Russia’s want for Latvian territory?
Andris Sprūds, Latvian Defence Minister: Well I believe all of us ought to be involved about what’s Russia. Russia is an imperialistic dictatorship. It kills individuals inside Russia. It after all, kills individuals additionally in different international locations, specifically now in brutal battle in its aggression in opposition to Ukraine. So that’s why, after all, we ought to be involved about totally different sorts of eventualities and we’re able to additionally for various sorts of eventualities. And—however it’s not one thing new for us. I imply, we’ve been dwelling subsequent to Russia, actually, for years, for many years. We’ve been dwelling in circumstances of hybrid warfare with the [00:03:32], with cyber-attacks, with incidents in opposition to crucial infrastructure, actually for a while. So we’ve been mentally and in addition militarily prepared, however I must also underline it’s not a Latvian territory—or not solely Latvian territory, it’s a NATO territory. We are on the identical boat. We are on the identical kind of web page in how we should always cope with such variety[s] of considerations and threats. Russia is recognized as [a] menace by all NATO international locations, in order that’s why, after all, Latvia along with allies, along with Canadians, are very a lot able to defend each inch of NATO territory. And Latvia, after all, is part of NATO in order that’s why it’s not simply it’s how Latvia might be distinguished, as a result of [an] assault in opposition to one nation or any sort of, kind of actions in opposition to one nation, it implies that it’s actions of battle in opposition to all international locations concerned.
Mercedes Stephenson: Part of the logic I’ve been informed by Canadian and American officers to placing Canadian troops in Latvia, which is our largest international deployment and rising, was that the Russians would know that there’s not solely a NATO nation they’re going into however North American NATO troops who’re current, that that might be a major deterrent. Do you assume that that is sufficient to stop Russia from transferring in the direction of Latvia?
Andris Sprūds, Latvian Defence Minister: Yes, completely. I imply, it is a important deterrent. It’s a major component to defence as effectively. Of course, we now have a battle group which is now being scaled as much as the brigade dimension. So we’re transferring to the brigade dimension in battle group of brigade dimension presence in Latvia. Of course, Canadians are taking the main function, the framework nation standing, a unified strategy. It is [the] finest defence, however after all, it’s additionally the—serves as the most effective deterrent in several variety[s] of circumstances when you’ve gotten precisely in your proximity, such a neighbour as Russia.
Mercedes Stephenson: Canada, after all, doesn’t spend 2 per cent of GDP, in contrast to your nation which I imagine spends greater than 2 per cent of your GDP on defence. How necessary do you assume it’s for international locations like Canada to extend their defence spending, or do you assume the argument the Canadian authorities makes, which is that our presence and our personnel make up for the truth that we don’t spend that a lot cash?
Andris Sprūds, Latvian Defence Minister: Two per cent is necessary, is necessary in a wider NATO context. It’s necessary as a result of it reveals there may be solidarity in menace evaluation and understanding that there are widespread issues that we should always do collectively actively, and naturally, burden sharing is essential. It can also be about credibility. If we take commitments, we should always, after all, cope with these commitments very significantly. Once extra, Latvia, and I believe additionally all our allies, very a lot admire and extremely reward Canadian contribution. But [at the] identical time, after all, apparently there are additionally issues what we will all do, and a couple of per cent is necessary. Latvia treats it very significantly. Actually, this yr, we’re approaching 3 per cent army expenditure from our GDP. Of course, additionally our neighbours are additionally taking significantly. So that’s why it’s, after all a couple of bilateral interplay and cooperation. It’s about unilateral strengths and [00:06:37] strengths and [00:06:38] defence. It’s after all, additionally about commitments [00:06:41] Alliance as an entire. Out of 32 international locations, initially of the yr it was 11 international locations reaching 2 per cent thresholds. And by the tip of the yr, it already will probably be 18 international locations, and maybe even shut to twenty international locations.
Mercedes Stephenson: There is a few concern about Ukraine within the battle proper now and the way their managing to maintain it. It’s clearly been very tough. And some of us are saying the battle might be getting nearer to a pivotal level, that the Ukrainians aren’t having as many victories as NATO and the West want to see. Are you involved about vulnerability there?
Andris Sprūds, Latvian Defence Minister: Of course we count on successes and victories, however battle is brutal. And let’s not overestimate what Russia is, however let’s not additionally after all, underestimate. Russia has been in a position to modify. Of course, it’s [a] nation which completely demonstrates negligence for the human life, and naturally, that is—I’d not say benefit, however that is what ought to be taken, sadly, tragically into consideration. But it’s necessary, after all, to assist Ukraine as a result of Ukraine not solely fights for itself, it fights for the credibility of [00:07:44] or transatlantic group. It fights for our values. It fights for the foundations based mostly order, which is a lot necessary for such international locations as Latvia and Canada however after all, additionally for all democratic guidelines of obeying and complying with nations.
Mercedes Stephenson: Donald Trump has mentioned the opportunity of eliminating NATO. What would that imply for a rustic like Latvia?
Andris Sprūds, Latvian Defence Minister: Well after all, we observe intently what’s occurred additionally within the United States, however let’s additionally put into the context. If you look again to additionally Donald Trump’s presidency, sure there was generally harsh wording. But if you happen to take a look at the deeds, the United States remained a really staunch supporter of unified strategy, after all, inviting for burden sharing for two per cent as effectively, and naturally, on the identical time, contributing to safety. I imply, again in 2017, 2021, through the Trump presidency, each the international locations, the Eastern Flank really acquired further assist and presence of U.S. army than earlier than, and that’s why really we will look that the U.S. stay and can stay the necessary strategic and indispensible companions inside the NATO alliance.
Mercedes Stephenson: Minister Sprūds, thanks a lot for coming in and becoming a member of us as we speak, and we want you a secure journey again to Latvia.
Andris Sprūds, Latvian Defence Minister: Thank you a lot as effectively. It’s a pleasure being right here, so thanks.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, candid considerations in regards to the state of our army.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: From recruitment to readiness, the state of the Canadian army is within the highlight, and never in a great way. The considerations in regards to the Canadian Armed Forces have been actual for years, however now the minister of nationwide defence himself has underlined it very publicly.
Bill Blair, Defence Minister: “Thank you all very much. Merci beaucoup.”
Mercedes Stephenson: It occurred once I sat down with Bill Blair in Ottawa on the Conference on Security and Defence, the place he was unexpectedly candid.
Bill Blair, Defence Minister: “Over the past three years, more people have left than have entered. That is frankly, it’s a death spiral for the Canadian Armed Forces. We cannot afford to continue on that pace. We’ve got to do something differently.”
Mercedes Stephenson: The scarcity of troops becoming a member of the army and the variety of leaving has been a problem the top of the Canadian forces has been elevating for years.
Gen. Wayne Eyre, Chief of the Defence Staff: “So Mr. Chair, this is a challenge that not only every Western military is facing, but we’re facing it here at home as well.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Speaking to the parliamentary committee on public security and nationwide safety in 2022, General Eyre recognized this as one among his considerations.
Gen. Wayne Eyre, Chief of the Defence Staff: “I am very, very worried about our, our numbers. And we need—that’s why we’re putting as a priority effort—the priority effort—to reconstitution of our military.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Since then, the Canadian Armed Forces have tried to get artistic in attracting of us who could not have historically joined the army. They’ve modified among the requirements. Men now can have lengthy hair. Women can put on nail polish. You can dye your hair any color, they usually launched signing bonuses. But, has that been sufficient to show issues round? And are they specializing in the best issues?
Joining me now could be former chief of the defence employees, retired Gen. Thom Lawson.
Great to see you. Thank you for coming in, General Lawson.
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: Thanks for having me, Mercedes.
Mercedes Stephenson: I used to be actually struck by the candour of a minister of nationwide defence, who typically say, you already know, we’re working onerous, the whole lot’s wonderful, time period what’s occurring with recruitment and retention, and the variety of individuals within the Canadian Armed Forces as a dying spiral. What did you consider that?
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: Well candour is nice. You know, everytime you get candour from a political consultant, you already know you at the moment are going to cope with the difficulty. Slightly regarding that a few of that appears to be directed on the army that he’s in control of and he’s changing into impatient with them. My sense is that these aren’t the place the problems lie. The points are in different areas of recruiting and retention.
Mercedes Stephenson: Well and let’s—I’ve bought his speech in entrance of me, simply to fill of us in on among the areas, as a result of it took me unexpectedly a bit of bit, too, when he brazenly mentioned the army have requested us to be affected person. And he mentioned, “We can’t be patient. There’s a sense of urgency.” He’s requested army leaders to rethink among the issues which have been in place for a few years for recruitment that he believes are slowing issues down. It contains issues like who’s eligible? Getting rid of what he referred to as “out-dated medical requirements”. Creating a probation interval so that folks can get in and get began, as an alternative of ready for the background verify they require and dashing these background checks up. Do you assume that these are cheap areas to have a look at and legitimate criticism?
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: Certainly. I believe that these are cheap. Any time we’ve bought a defence minister who’s that conscious of the issues related to recruiting, it’s going so as to add impetus to repair this stuff. But my evaluation is that the army officers, the management of the Armed Forces, have been seized on this stuff. For occasion, the clearance, the safety clearances that he talked about, is just not one thing that’s held by the Canadian Armed Forces. We’re a buyer on these issues to these safety companies that take care of them. That’s been a barrier since I used to be chief of defence to getting individuals in rapidly. So quite a lot of this stuff would have, I believe, shocked the army officers who have been listening to the identical factor, could have even provided a few of this to the minister and it’s getting used in opposition to him. The good news is there’s candour there, and it’s definitely a really optimistic factor that the minister is aware of that the primary precedence is getting individuals in. Procurement and all types of different issues: coaching, readiness, these are necessary issues. But with out individuals, there’s no hope. With individuals, there’s hope.
Mercedes Stephenson: Well and he mentioned that there was about—the minister, about 16 thousand individuals brief within the common and reserve forces. That’s a fairly large quantity for a rustic the dimensions of Canada, however I do know we have been chatting simply earlier than this about what the numbers take a look at—appear like, and there’s some hypothesis that 16 thousand would possibly really be low. That there might be excess of that the Canadian forces are brief on.
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: Yeah. I believe it’s. I believe that quantity is low. It could also be swept up, once you take a look at the open spots within the reserves that might be low. My understanding, and by a latest briefing by the chief of defence to a gathering of the ex-chiefs of defence, indicated that that dying spiral is now night out. So almost as many individuals bought in final yr as bought out, that’s not nice news when you should get again these at the very least 16 thousand individuals and perhaps extra. But the very fact is it’s an entire lot higher than the couple of years earlier than, the place attribution far outstripped recruiting.
Mercedes Stephenson: Well one of many challenges is it’s not one-for-one. If you’ve gotten, you already know, a grasp warrant officer who served in Afghanistan, has been everywhere in the world, has been a frontrunner for a few years, and she or he will get out, this younger non-public coming in, effectively he’s—he’s not a one-for-one substitute, as a result of it takes so lengthy to construct up. So, what do you do about this retention difficulty? I maintain listening to from the troops that morale is on the lowest level that they’ve seen in years. It’s been a few years since Afghanistan. They really feel generally that they’re unsupported by the general public or by the federal government. How do you persuade these individuals to remain in a job that’s very tough, requires them to danger their life, and in lots of instances, they’re struggling now to pay their payments?
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: Right. Well to start with, these are nice jobs. And these people who find themselves affected by low morale now are in a bit of little bit of despair as a result of these are nice jobs they usually’ve liked dealing with them, like the feminine warrant you simply talked about. She needs to remain in, and but there are issues that concern her so vastly that she would possibly get out. Happily, the identical kind of factor that may cope with recruiting can cope with retention, and cope with a few of this 2 per cent that we’re being requested to put money into, within the Canadian army. The Canadian Armed Forces, there’s no one complains about what the Canadian Armed Forces are being paid. Nobody says the Canadian Armed Forces are overpaid. So I believe that there’s a gap there to make the Armed Forces not solely okay pay, however remarkably effectively paid with outstanding advantages as a way to compete with any group, outstrip different organizations on the market. So that can begin to handle—it’ll begin to make it a gorgeous group to hitch and a spot to begin their profession for lots of younger individuals now who could not think about that, however the identical kind of improve in pay and advantages, maintain these different individuals in, and provides to the 1.38 funding we’ve bought proper now, and I’m talking GDP, strikes it in the direction of that 2 per cent, and that cash stays in Canada.
Mercedes Stephenson: As we glance world wide, it’s obvious that the safety scenario is kind of dire and, you already know, not solely are you coping with teams like ISIS or the Houthis’ that carry me again to fascinated about, you already know, 2014 or the battle on terror. At the identical time there’s concern about China. There’s concern about Russia. There’s concern about transnational crime and cartels. It appears to simply be exploding all over the place, and we’re listening to the Canadian Armed Forces not solely doesn’t have sufficient individuals, however doesn’t have the gear that they want. CBC ran a report—my buddy Murray Brewster, the reporter over there—that 58 per cent of the Canadian Armed Forces gear, in accordance with an inside report they obtained, couldn’t be used. It’s unavailable or unserviceable. That’s fairly outstanding numbers.
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: Well, I imply you spoke in regards to the morale waning in some areas of the Armed Forces. My expertise is that if you happen to’re within the decrease ranks—these are both an officer or a non-commissioned member, which is the majority of individuals in uniform—your morale isn’t actually based mostly on what’s occurring in Ottawa and the strategic choices. You must have gear that works and a capability to coach or deploy, to use your commerce. If you are able to do that, they’ll stick with the Armed Forces, it doesn’t matter what occurs to be occurring in Ottawa.
The issues that you just’re speaking about are actual. When we try to take $900 million out of this yr’s funds, $850 million out of subsequent yr’s funds, it comes out of these very issues that can permit individuals to use their commerce and get deployed. A whole lot of that nice coaching we used to do in Europe was shut down final yr due to the requirement to search out that cash. So I believe that, you already know, quite a lot of these massive procurement gadgets that we’ve simply heard about are large ticket gadgets that present some promise, each for the procurement system and for people who find themselves going to hitch sooner or later. But we’ve bought to verify we maintain who we’ve bought in proper now and encourage quite a lot of others who proper now aren’t pondering of becoming a member of the Armed Forces, of becoming a member of the Armed Forces.
Mercedes Stephenson: Is your sense that, and I do know the present chief of defence employees has raised actually critical concern about this, that the Canadian Armed Forces may step up if there was a battle, or are we in deep trouble?
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: Well, sadly you arrive on the celebration the best way you’re dressed. So we’re 16 thousand brief proper now. That’s how we get there. As you mentioned, you already know, for the very rawest troopers, sailors, airmen on the market who you want little or no from by way of experience, it’s nonetheless going to be a yr and a half coaching. For a fighter pilot on one among these F-18s or F-35s that we’ve going to have in a short time, that’s extra like 5 years. So that kind of lead time is one thing that we now have to be contemplating on a regular basis, and that implies that you just’ve bought to reinvest within the bases, the wings and all the coaching amenities proper right here in Canada. Again, the cash would keep proper right here in Canada.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you assume that we’re going to see—and I’m going to ask you to place in your General Lawson psychic hotline hat right here—more cash within the funds for the army? Or do you assume that that’s one thing the federal government’s going to place off once more?
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: I believe politically over all the a long time that I’ve ever been within the forces, our political leaders cost to the entrance of what the constituents need. And constituents in Canada sometimes are far sufficient from any fray that defence is, you already know, they’re wonderful. They respect defence. They liked us once we have been in Afghanistan. Some of that affection is leftover proper via to as we speak. Respect is excessive. But placing forward of issues like well being care, housing, training, and policing. No. You don’t usually see it. But we’re beginning to see it now. And once you begin to see polls like we’ve lately seen, the place 45 per cent of Canadians at the moment are pro-defence to the purpose that they need to see reinvestment, now a frontrunner in politics doesn’t need to be rogue and train constituents the place they’re going to place the cash, which we’ve all the time argued for. Please, try to train individuals on the bottom, your voters, that we’d like this. Now, you may observe these constituents and put cash—reinvest as so many are asking us to do, together with NATO.
Mercedes Stephenson: General Thom Lawson, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us and your insights. As all the time, nice to see you.
Retired Gen. Thomas Lawson, Former Chief of the Defence Staff: A pleasure. Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, how far is Defence Minister Bill Blair prepared to go to repair the forces?
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: For this week’s one very last thing, we’re going to indicate you a bit extra of that dialogue I had with Defence Minister Bill Blair on the Ottawa Security and Defence Conference.
Mercedes Stephenson: I doubt you missed the gasp that went via the room. In this usually fairly sedate convention once you talked in regards to the army not transferring quick sufficient, in your opinion, to get individuals in. Perhaps rejecting individuals who you imagine ought to be in.
Bill Blair, Defence Minister: I’ve completely no intention of decreasing the requirements. We, we count on excellence in our armed forces, and that’s what we should always search. And frankly, it’s a must to work out the best way to go quick. And there are, there are processes, and I’ll simply give an instance. The, the everlasting residents that utilized, we’ve taken greater than 14 months to be in processing these individuals. Most of that point is being spent on background checks. There, there are methods to expedite that. One of the issues that, that I used to be, I used to be informed by the army is, you already know, if we rent them, we’re caught with them perpetually, like we personal them perpetually. And that’s why they’re so cautious. And I mentioned, effectively, in each different career, and definitely the career I come from—I spent 40 years in policing—we had a probationary interval. And, and we carry individuals in on probation. It gave us a chance to search out out in the event that they have been proper for us or if we have been proper for them. And on the finish of the probationary interval, we’d make a optimistic choice whether or not we have been going to retain them. The overwhelming majority of them have stayed.
Mercedes Stephenson: A whole lot of the oldsters I discuss to who’re leaving, say they’re leaving as a result of they really feel unsupported by this authorities. They assume that the federal government doesn’t take defence significantly, that there’s not going to be important cash within the funds, that their gear continues to disintegrate, and is a really gradual course of to switch it. I imply, ammunition is an instance of that. Do you assume your authorities bears any duty for the best way that folk really feel about becoming a member of the Canadian Armed Forces or getting out earlier than their time is up?
Bill Blair, Defence Minister: You know, after all. I believe all governments—mine, earlier governments, for many years—there’s some duty for the present state of preparedness of the Canadian Armed Forces. Quite frankly, once I was given this job, I used to be given very specific directions: go get issues executed. Move as rapidly as potential on the required procurements. Work with the Canadian Armed Forces to cope with problems with retention. The folks that put on these uniforms are, are an important useful resource that we now have: investing in them, supporting them. Making certain that they’re—they’re geared up and succesful, and skilled and in a position to do the job that we ask of them is our, our biggest duty. It’s a duty I share with all of the individuals right here in uniform, however it’s, it’s a duty that we’re going to answer.
Mercedes Stephenson: That was Defence Minister Bill Blair in Ottawa.
Thanks for watching, and we’ll see you once more subsequent week.
