The West Block – Episode 23, Season 12 – National | 24CA News
THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 23, Season 12
Sunday, February 26, 2023
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
Kenny Chiu, Former Conservative MP
Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director
Anita Anand, Defence Minister
Location:
Ottawa, ON
Mercedes Stephenson: Explosive allegations about how and who China used to intervene in Canada’s federal elections. Is it time for a public inquiry?
I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.
Intelligence leaks are elevating questions. Was the Prime Minister’s Office warned a couple of Liberal MP and a Liberal fundraiser who sources say CSIS was watching?
Canada is sending extra army assist to Ukraine because the nation marks one yr since Russia’s invasion. But is the federal government doing sufficient to spice up the capabilities of the Canadian Armed Forces right here at house? We’ll ask the minister.
Intelligence sources allege {that a} sitting Liberal member of parliament is a witting affiliate of the Chinese authorities’s makes an attempt to intervene in Canadian elections. It’s the newest bombshell in a collection of prime secret leaks, renewing considerations over interference in Canada’s democracy and elections in 2019 and 2021.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says international interference is an actual menace, however dismissed a number of the criticisms as partisan. He additionally known as the intelligence leaks inaccurate.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “Foreign countries are trying to undermine people’s confidence in our democracies and destabilize those democracies. And when we lean in on partisanship around this, we’re actually helping them in doing their work of sowing confusion and mistrust.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Joining me now to speak about that is Global News investigative reporter Sam Cooper; former CSIS director and nationwide safety and intelligence advisor to the prime minister, Dick Fadden; and former Conservative MP Kenny Chiu. Thank you all for becoming a member of us.
Sam, a extremely explosive story that you just’ve damaged right here, alleging, you recognize, issues which can be exceptional a couple of sitting member of parliament, who by the best way, vehemently denies that any of that is true. He says it’s all false. What are your sources telling you about this member of parliament? Who is it? And does the Prime Minister’s Office know.
Sam Cooper, Global News: We’ve reported that three weeks earlier than the 2019 federal election, the prime minister’s prime aides have been warned by CSIS in a categorised briefing that this candidate, Han Dan, was a part of a Chinese international interference community. Furthermore, he was related to a different alleged suspect, Michael Chan, a former Ontario Liberal minister. So this can be a very severe categorised transient to the prime minister’s prime aides, and CSIS was asking the Prime Minister’s Office to rescind Dan’s nomination, a really severe warning. They’re telling the prime minister primarily, you could have a candidate that’s working for China. The allegations, our sources say, is that Mr. Dan is a prepared affiliate of this Chinese community that we’ve reported on interference in 2019 and 2021. So does the prime minister know what our sources say, is that the prime minister’s prime aides have been warned? They ignored the warning, allegedly. Mr. Dan received in 2019. He’s re-elected in 2021. Meanwhile, we have now CSIS sourcing saying this can be a concern and he’s not the one one.
Mercedes Stephenson: Obviously that’s very regarding. I do know Kenny to you lots of this doesn’t come as a shock. You have lengthy alleged that the rationale why you misplaced the election was on account of Chinese interference in your using. What was your expertise with that?
Kenny Chiu, Former Conservative MP: Well Mercedes, I simply wish to have a minor correction of what you mentioned. I’ve been saying that the Chinese interference, it’s a contributing issue to my loss. Now it—you recognize, you may by no means determine whether or not there’s an unique cause or not. What I’ve skilled right here domestically is that inside a really brief time period, lower than two years. Supporters of mine rapidly flip… turns into very indignant and emotional to me, personally. And they’ll shut the door behind… in entrance of my face and they’d… used to plant garden indicators supporting me and they’d inform me that they don’t even wish to vote for me. And all of the distinction is simply inside 22 months of time and it’s all due to info that’s being circulated amongst them in WeChat and likewise WhatsApp that one way or the other persuade them that I’m anti-Chinese, that I’m a racist, that I’m anti-China.
Mercedes Stephenson: And why do you imagine that these rumours and people unfaithful tales got here from Beijing?
Kenny Chiu, Former Conservative MP: Well there are sanctioned articles which can be being printed in WeChat that we all know solely sanctioned info could be printed… publicised in WeChat and get circulated there. And these… this info article, you recognize, would painting Conservatives as anti-Chinese, that Erin O’Toole, it’s going to ban, of all issues, WeChat, that Kenny Chiu goes to place Canadians of Chinese descent into jeopardy, that they’re risking $400 thousand penalty due to my personal member invoice to have a international interference registry created.
Mercedes Stephenson: You know I wish to go to you on this Dick as a result of I get requested this query quite a bit by viewers, by people who find themselves studying the articles. They wish to know, is the federal government reputable? Was the election affected on a grand scale? Do we all know that info? Is there a technique to discover that out?
Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director: Well I feel to be sensible about it; we have now to confess that Chinese interference efforts in Canada are focused. They’re not focusing on each constituency in Canada. Everything that I’ve seen or learn means that it’s lower than two dozen, and so they might or might not have been profitable in influencing these two dozen, so the entire the rest of these numbers would have decided in the long run, the ultimate consequence. So I feel basically, the general consequence, because the prime minister says, completely reputable. Individual constituencies, completely different subject.
Mercedes Stephenson: Sam, I feel one of many questions has been why politicians haven’t been prepared to do one thing about this, that the international agent’s registry is an instance of that. It exists in different nations. It doesn’t exist right here but. The authorities is dedicated to type of holding a public look into whether or not or not they need to have one. What do your sources allege the holdup is on the federal government being prepared to take motion to stamp out—I imply as a lot as you may, it’s powerful with China—however to take some actions to not less than make it more durable for international governments to intervene.
Sam Cooper, Global News: I feel two details. One of them connects to what Kenny mentioned about being attacked. Look, a serious bombshell in our report from a number of days in the past is that CSIS reporting, based on our sources, says that Michael Chan, a former member of parliament, legislature in Ontario, promised to assault critics of the Chinese regime and was a good friend of the consulate. So if we see politicians getting focused for any assertion about China, it simply raises large questions on different politicians in Canada who could also be tasked to assault them. Furthermore, what Canadian politician needs to enter an election with unfavourable details about them. So may this clarify why the Liberal authorities, or different governments, don’t desire a registry? They don’t wish to go into the following election dealing with the true concern that once they knock on doorways, folks is not going to be receptive as a result of they are going to be known as anti-Asian or racist. Of course, there’s fundraising points that we imagine…or that’s, our sources say, Mr. Chan the topic of our story, is a large fundraiser for the Liberal Party. Does it elevate questions why they might not wish to look too significantly at allegations in opposition to him?
Mercedes Stephenson: And Mr. Chan as effectively has denied these allegations. He says that they’re uncatogorically unfaithful.
Dick, Jean-Pierre Kingsley, former chief electoral commissioner for Canada has mentioned that we most likely want a public inquiry to look into this to find out whether or not or not it’s the case. As a former nationwide safety and intelligence advisor, do you assume {that a} public inquiry is required to kind this out and to get to the underside or what we do and didn’t know and what occurred?
Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director: Well I come to this conclusion considerably reluctantly as a result of there’s a historical past in Canada of quite a bit public inquiries which have gone nowhere. Having mentioned that, plenty of them have been very, very helpful. I feel on this case, the allegations are so severe they have to be seemed into. So the query is: If you don’t do a public inquiry, who does it? I feel the logical place can be parliament, but it surely has grow to be so partisan that I feel that this specific form of matter can be nearly not possible for them to have a look at objectively. So I feel the general public inquiry is de facto the path to go. It ought to be given a restricted mandate in order that they report, you recognize, effectively earlier than the following election. There ought to be an inquiry beneath the Inquiries Act in order that they’ll name, subpoena folks and paperwork, if want be. And I can’t see any compelling cause to not do it within the public curiosity, besides some partisan issues that Sam has raised.
Mercedes Stephenson: And Kenny, I wish to ask you about a few of these partisan issues as a result of I’ve seen lots of Conservative sources publicly criticizing Justin Trudeau, however privately they appear slightly bit involved about speaking about China as effectively now, too. Is this one thing that probably impacts each events willingness to take motion or to take bipartisan motion, which might take the politics out of it, if each events are on the identical web page? Then I’m unsure how China the identical means favours one or the opposite. I’m actually curious, your ideas on that and the way the Conservative Party and the opposition ought to cope with this.
Kenny Chiu, Former Conservative MP: Well Mercedes, I feel it’s most likely not an precisely truthful portrayed of the Conservative Party place on this as a result of I imply, ever since Hussein [00:09:53 Shaalayo] after which Julia and Kevin Garratt’s, and the 2 Michaels, I imply the federal government… the present authorities have seen proof after proof that who we’re coping with and but, you recognize, after what the Conservatives have tried to push the federal government… the present authorities to determine… to resume a brand new technique to do with China, they’ve since… ever since we pushed again on that, and so they refuse to conduct and replace our nationwide technique. Conservatives have spoken up quite a bit up to now. The downside, the matter of reality is, Canada, it’s in a dire scenario not simply to do with international interference. Yes, it’s of specific concern to us. It’s of specific concern to me. But we face a weakened financial system. Many Canadians imagine that we aren’t heading in the correct instructions. Many issues are damaged. So Conservatives are placing their priorities, many issues that Canadians care about and considered one of them, definitely, is tips on how to assert our sovereignty, tips on how to defend ourselves, tips on how to defend our democratic institute, elections, and many others.
Mercedes Stephenson: We simply have a number of seconds left, Dick, however what wants to vary within the regulation?
Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director: Well I feel we’d like the registry and I feel we have to make it very clear that political events have a duty for making certain that the Canada Elections Act is complied with. I feel it’s harmful to have the federal government attempt to regulate this too straight: partisan actions, political actions. But when you’ve got a regulation, a change within the Elections Act that claims very clearly: political events have an obligation to do a, b, c, d in regards to the receipt of cash, the way it’s accountable for, most likely enhance the assets allotted to the chief electoral officer. But I feel we have to acknowledge, although, that there’s no silver bullet. This goes to take some effort coping with social media and a number of the ethnic press goes to take time. But I feel the very first thing we have to do is to speak about this significantly. And given the overall surroundings Canada, I don’t assume it’s going to work except we have now a public inquiry.
Mercedes Stephenson: Well, definitely a exceptional story, Sam. It definitely appears the nationwide safety group is worried and can proceed to speak about this. Thank you to all three of you, for becoming a member of us in the present day.
Sam Cooper, Global News: Thank you.
Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director: My pleasure.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, Defence Minister Anita Anand displays on one yr because the battle in Ukraine and the highlight that it shone on the state of the Canadian Armed Forces.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: Canada is sending 4 extra Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, bringing the full variety of tanks that we are going to be sharing with the Ukrainians to eight.
Since Russia’s invasion a yr in the past, Ottawa has dedicated $1 billion in army assist to Ukraine. The army spending comes at a time when the Canadian Armed Forces are being stretched to the restrict right here at house.
For extra on this, I’m joined by Defence Minister Anita Anand. Welcome again, minister. Nice to see you.
Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Hi Mercedes, nice to be right here with you.
Mercedes Stephenson: Obviously, a really welcome announcement for Ukraine in the present day. They’re receiving 4 extra tanks. They have talked in regards to the significance of that, however we’ve additionally heard in regards to the constraints right here at house. We solely have 82 major battle tanks or had. That quantity is now down by eight, which implies we’re contributing 10 per cent of the general fleet. But I hear from army sources that is nearer 20 per cent of Canada’s operational tanks which can be going. Do you could have any considerations in regards to the Canadian army having the ability to prepare and do their jobs successfully after we are sending this a lot to the Ukrainians?
Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Just to be clear, we’re sending extra Leopard 2A4 battle tanks. That’s along with the 4 that we have now already despatched, bringing our complete to eight. We are additionally sending a restoration car, which is a kind of tow truck for tanks, in addition to 5 thousand rounds of 155 mm ammunition, spare components and coaching as effectively. So this can be a second package deal for Ukraine referring to the Leopard 2A4 tanks and we’re on the forefront with our allies when it comes to nations which have tanks on the bottom in Poland, coaching on these tanks to be despatched to Ukraine.
Now when it comes to your query referring to the capitalisation of the Canadian Armed Forces, I’m at all times involved to be sure that the Canadian Armed Forces have what they should serve and defend this unimaginable nation. What meaning is we’re going to be buying extra tanks for the Canadian Armed Forces. We are going to additionally undertake the defence coverage replace in order that we are able to have an throughout the board take a look at what different capabilities the Canadian Armed Forces want. At the identical time, we’re rising our defence spending by 70 per cent beneath robust, safe, engaged. We’re buying different capabilities such because the 88 F-35s and persevering with to be sure that we do what is important to capitalize the Canadian Armed Forces. But definitely, it’s a concern and Wayne Eyre and I are very a lot on prime of it.
Mercedes Stephenson: What concrete steps has your authorities taken to start out the contracts, for instance, to switch these tanks? Is there a timeline? Have you initiated that course of? I feel that’s what lots of the troopers are anxious to listen to reassurance on that it’s not simply phrases however there’s precise steps being taken. Is that what’s taking place?
Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Well to start, in my conversations referring to tanks, I, myself, wish to be assured that we have now capabilities for the Canadian Armed Forces. It’s essential for them when it comes to their coaching, when it comes to their improvement to have these and different capabilities. We additionally wish to be sure that we have now essentially the most progressive and trendy options. So it’s not essentially the case that the Leopard 2A4 tank goes to be the alternative car. We need to be sure that we’re recapitalizing with the hottest know-how that’s interoperable with our allies as we have now achieved up to now, as have been doing with the F-35s.
Mercedes Stephenson: So that sounds prefer it could possibly be some time and I definitely perceive the worth of eager to ensure you’re shopping for the correct gear, but it surely sounds then like contracts received’t be in place till after the defence coverage assessment is accomplished and the federal government has had an opportunity to assessment it?
Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Well I feel, Mercedes, what it’s important to take a look at is the worldwide provide chain for gadgets like tanks, for gadgets like heavy artillery, for gadgets like ammunition. All issues that we wish to guarantee we have now capitalizing the Canadian Armed Forces, however all issues that different nations are additionally on the lookout for. So one of many causes I’ve been reaching out and assembly with suppliers not too long ago is to make sure Canada’s precedence placement within the provide chain and to be sure that we’re doing no matter is important from a home innovation perspective additionally, to construct up Canadian trade similtaneously procuring quickly. So we’re working in a short time when it comes to the Canadian provide chain, when it comes to worldwide procurements, in addition to capitalizing Ukraine with the gear that it must combat and win this battle. And I’ll inform you that that can also be a precedence that we ought to be desirous about significantly, Mercedes, on this one anniversary of the unlawful and unjustifiable invasion of Ukraine by Vladimir Putin.
Mercedes Stephenson: And clearly, the Ukrainians are an especially pressing scenario. They’re truly in a battle proper now and there’s the stability between supplying that and sustaining our personal capabilities.
One query I needed to ask you about when it comes to issues Ukraine has been asking for. We all know UABs have been an enormous a part of the battle effort there when it comes to reconnaissance and surveillance capabilities. Canada manufactured the cameras that have been on some. I’ve right here, three letters that have been despatched to you and your authorities by the Ukrainian authorities, together with the minister of nationwide defence, asking for a Canadian made drone, known as the SkyRanger R70. And it’s truly able to doing issues like choosing up cellular phone indicators, which has helped establish Russian positions for strikes up to now, for instance, or monitoring for issues like chemical and organic brokers which can be within the air. It appears to be like to me, based mostly on the dates off these letters, just like the Ukrainians have been asking for these for over a yr. Will your authorities provide the Sky Ranger drones to Ukraine as they’ve been asking for?
Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Well I just like the query, Mercedes, as a result of it does level to the truth that we have now been in shut dialog with the Ukrainian authorities in regards to the gear that it must combat and win this battle. And certainly, I used to be in contact with Oleksii Reznikov in the present day on the truth that we’re making a further donation of 4 Leopard 2A4 tanks, to carry our complete to eight.
In phrases of the particular merchandise that you just talked about, the drones, after all, we’re taking a look at no matter assist we are able to placed on the desk for Ukraine. That’s why we’re listed as among the many prime 5 of contributors of army gear to Ukraine by an impartial panel that has checked out this subject. So by all means, we’re preserving all choices on the desk. That is my position as defence minister and our very shut relationship with Ukraine calls for no much less.
Mercedes Stephenson: One final query for you, minister. The final time I spoke to the chief of the defence workers on the present, a number of weeks again, I requested him whether or not Canada’s army is prepared for the challenges forward. And I used to be form of shocked when his reply was primarily one phrase: No. He went on to say that it could be a problem for Canada to satisfy it’s NATO necessities if Russia have been to develop the battle into a rustic like Latvia or Lithuania, and that we’d be very, very laborious pressed to have the ability to reply to that. Do you share that evaluation of the state of the Canadian Armed Forces?
Anita Anand, Defence Minister: I truly assume that what we have to preserve doing is to make sure that we’re procuring the capabilities that the Canadian Armed Forces want within the brief and the long run. But I sleep at evening, typically, understanding that the Canadian Armed Forces are doing no matter they’ll to guard and defend this nation and that they’re efficient. Remember NORAD simply few weeks in the past, taking pictures down a suspected balloon over Central Yukon. That is NORAD doing what NORAD does: defending and defending our skies. And Canadian Armed Forces members with their American counterparts have been working collectively aspect by aspect for 40 years in defending our nation and defending our air area. And so I imagine there’s extra work to do, however I additionally imagine that the Canadian Armed Forces are an especially efficient and devoted group and I, as minister, will do no matter is important to help the essential work that they play in our nation.
Mercedes Stephenson: So, would that be a sure or no to sharing General Eyre’s evaluation?
Anita Anand, Defence Minister: That is an ongoing dedication to creating positive that the Canadian Armed Forces have what they want, to execute on their most severe and vital duty for our nation. And as General Eyre himself mentioned, we have to preserve buying capabilities not just for use right here at house, however as we transfer to brigade stage in Latvia, to assist defend NATO’s japanese flank, for instance, we additionally have to capitalize to meet these obligations. So we have now a number of obligations domestically and internationally, and my job is to be sure that we execute on these.
Mercedes Stephenson: Not a sure or a no. Okay. Minister Anand, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us in the present day.
Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Thank you a lot, Mercedes. Take excellent care.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, questions on what the federal government knew and when, in the case of allegations of China’s election interference right here in Canada and the way that’s going to play out within the coming days.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one final thing, the Liberal authorities has come beneath rising strain on the China election interference file. Now a former CSIS director and a former chief electoral officer are calling for an impartial inquiry.
The prime minister and people round him have continued to dismiss media reviews in regards to the PMOs information, together with a refusal to acknowledge whether or not senior workers have been briefed a couple of Liberal MP who was allegedly a witting affiliate of Beijing’s interference community.
There has been little transparency aside from politician say in order that every part is okay. And with a minority authorities, we by no means know the way far off the following election is.
Until politicians on all sides are prepared to place apart partisanship and unravel Beijing’s medalling, Canadians and the media may have severe questions.
That’s our present for in the present day. Thanks for hanging out with us, and we’ll see you subsequent week.
