The West Block – Episode 22, Season 12 – National | 24CA News
THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 22, Season 12
Sunday, February 19, 2023
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister
Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister
Location:
Ottawa, ON
Mercedes Stephenson: A rustic scarred by divisions after the pandemic and dealing with threats from overseas. How will we heal the nation and defend Canadians?
I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.
Out of the frying pan, into the hearth: The Rouleau Commission finds the federal authorities was justified in invoking the Emergencies Act, however the Liberals are dealing with new questions on Chinese interference in Canada’s democracy.
Plus, is Canada’s Arctic safe? Questions about holes in our defences loom after the Chinese spy balloon saga.
A state of affairs that spun uncontrolled, that’s how Justice Paul Rouleau described what was occurring throughout final winter’s convoy blockades. His report into the prime minister’s resolution to invoke the Emergencies Act got here out final Friday. Justice Rouleau stated the federal government had met the edge they wanted to, however that the state of affairs in and of itself was additionally a failure of federalism.
Justice Paul Rouleau, Public Order Emergencies Act Commission: “Preparing for and responding to situations of threat and urgency in a federal system requires governments at all levels, and those who lead them, to rise above politics and collaborate for the common good. In January and February, 2022 this did not always happen.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino joins me now. Welcome to the present, minister.
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Thanks for having me.
Mercedes Stephenson: I suppose you couldn’t have requested for a lot of a greater report as the federal government. It very clearly stated that this was required, nevertheless it additionally stated it by no means wanted to get up to now, that there have been failures in policing. There had been failures in politics. There had been failures in politicians at totally different ranges of presidency, to get alongside. Do you want you’d dealt with this in another way or acted sooner?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Well first, I wish to start my—expressing my gratitude to Judge Rouleau for issuing his report. After fastidiously listening to the entire proof over a lot of weeks, he did come to the conclusion that the federal government was justified in invoking the Emergencies Act and that’s as a result of, as you identified, this was a protest that was nationwide in scale. It impacted folks and employees. It utterly upended of us’ method of going about their each day lives. And the federal government had a accountability to behave, so we took that accountability and we took that call very severely. We didn’t wish to invoke the act, however we did and it labored. And it resolved the blockades. No one obtained harm. There had been no fatalities. There was no important harm to property. And now we now have to set about wanting on the suggestions that he was very considerate in writing, together with ensuring that we’ve obtained sturdy traces of communication with police and governments in order that ideally, we by no means get into this example once more.
Mercedes Stephenson: Did you agree with the evaluation that Doug Ford mainly deserted the folks of Ottawa, in accordance with this report that the Ontario authorities didn’t act?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Well there’s little question that there was very troublesome moments not just for the provinces and the territories, however for the police and that’s the reason the federal government took each step to handle these challenges, as Judge Rouleau wrote in his report. I believe one of many essential factors going ahead is to strengthen the collaboration, strengthen the coordination between all ranges of presidency in order that it by no means does get to a degree the place it’s worthwhile to invoke the Emergencies Act. There are some concrete suggestions round policing and sharing of data and intelligence, and even among the texts which are within the regulation itself. We’re going to review these very fastidiously and we’re going to work with all of our provincial and territorial companions, together with Ontario with whom we’ve obtained a very good working relationship to go ahead, as a result of there’s nothing extra essential than defending the well being and security of Canadians.
Mercedes Stephenson: On Friday, Prime Minister Trudeau mainly stated that he was sorry for calling individuals who engaged on this a fringe minority, and there’s been lots of dialogue in regards to the divisions in Canada and the type of language that was used. Pierre Poilievre, the Opposition Leader, is laying the accountability for the convoy on the ft of the Liberal authorities, saying that as a consequence of authorities overreach on COVID restrictions that went too far for too lengthy and the best way that you simply talked about individuals who disagreed with them is actually what led to this. Is there some fact to that?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: There’s undoubtedly some fact to the truth that Canadians had been hurting all through the pandemic. And there’s additionally fact in the truth that we reside in a democracy and other people have a basic proper to specific totally different factors of view, and having debates is without doubt one of the methods through which we make ahead progress. But it’s additionally true that the federal government at each crucial juncture all through the pandemic and all through our tenure has all the time positioned as a paramount objective, the safety of the well being and security of Canadians. And once we do this, we base our selections on proof and science and info. And as we navigate these difficult occasions, it’s essential that we work collectively, and I believe, maybe, that is without doubt one of the most essential themes that come out of the Rouleau Commission report.
Mercedes Stephenson: But that wasn’t actually your authorities’s tone on the time.
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Well, I might merely say that sure, there are undoubtedly some classes to be taken, however our dedication is to review the suggestions very fastidiously and convey Canadians alongside as we speed up our restoration popping out of the pandemic. But this was an essential second for us to behave. We had an obligation to behave. We had been confronted with a really distinctive state of affairs, the place folks couldn’t get to work. Thousands of individuals had been laid off, briefly. Businesses had been shut down. People couldn’t traverse the border. We had one in every of our closest, if not our closest ally within the United States, expressing the profound issues that these blockades would interrupt the circulation of crucial provide chains. In the very fact of all of these circumstances, we had no option to act. We had been all the time reluctant to invoke and desperate to revoke. And now we are going to research the Commission report, to take no matter classes we have to, going ahead so ideally, we by no means need to invoke it once more.
Mercedes Stephenson: As the minister of public security, you oversee the RCMP and CSIS, two of Canada’s policing and intelligence companies that take care of overseas interference. It’s one thing that Global News has reported on rather a lot. There was a reasonably explosive report in The Globe and Mail on Friday, citing paperwork, very excessive stage paperwork from CSIS, speaking about China’s makes an attempt to intervene instantly within the election, and actually, a goal, notably Conservative candidates and to trigger them to lose. This was the technique. You have repeatedly stated that you simply didn’t have any proof of China interfering. Then on Friday, the prime minister got here out and stated, effectively after all we’ve recognized China’s making an attempt to intervene for a very long time. My query to you is: Do you, or do you not, have proof that China interfered within the 2021 election?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Mercedes, we’ve all the time been up entrance with Canadians that overseas interference is a major menace within the nationwide safety panorama, and that’s why we created unbiased panels made up of non-partisan, skilled public servants, to look at very fastidiously the circumstances within the 2019 and 2021 federal elections. And after conducting that assessment, they got here to the conclusion that these elections had been free and truthful. Now that’s crucial…
Mercedes Stephenson: Despite what CSIS is saying, as a result of CSIS is—I needs to be cautious of that—CSIS shouldn’t be saying they weren’t free or truthful elections…
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: That’s proper. They’re not saying that.
Mercedes Stephenson: They are documenting threats which weren’t publicly revealed. Should you’ve informed the Canadian folks about these makes an attempt to intervene?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: We’ve all the time been up entrance with the truth that there’s overseas interference that we should be eyes wide-open and vigilant about. They pose a menace to our democratic establishments, which is why we put in place instruments like Bill C-76, to cease overseas funding from interfering with elections, which is why we created two panels. And it was as much as the non…
Mercedes Stephenson: But when had been these created? Weren’t they earlier than the 2021 election?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: To be clear, we created each of these panels to have a look at each elections. You don’t need elected politicians wading into the outcomes. You need non-partisan, skilled public servants, to independently research the circumstances of the elections, who concluded on their very own, independently, that the elections had been free and truthful. And that’s essential…
Mercedes Stephenson: Did they’ve entry to the CSIS stories?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: And I simply wish to full the thought. That’s essential as a result of that implies that Canadians, and Canadians alone, decided the end result of these elections, and we are going to proceed to make sure that we’re eyes wide-open about that.
Mercedes Stephenson: Did that panel have entry to those intelligence stories? Were they conscious of what CSIS was conscious of?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Our non-partisan, skilled public servants have a look at the data that they should, to make the evaluation across the integrity of the election.
Mercedes Stephenson: Does that embody the CSIS report?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: So they get the entry that they should the data that’s required to return to these conclusions. And these are essential [00:09:20] towards the threats of overseas interference. I’d additionally level out that it’s not nearly democratic establishments. It’s additionally about defending our financial system, which is why in latest days, myself, Minister Champagne, Minister Duclos, additionally strengthened the protections within the tutorial sector by making certain that there are stricter pointers on the subject of analysis partnerships once they suggest to review delicate areas, the place that partnership contains navy and different delicate branches of hostile state actors. This authorities will all the time take no matter steps which are mandatory, to guard our democratic establishments, defend our elections, defend our financial system and to guard Canadians from overseas interference.
Mercedes Stephenson: Does that embody expelling Chinese diplomats who’re bragging about makes an attempt to affect the election?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: We will all the time take no matter steps that’s mandatory. If meaning condemning hostile state actors, we are going to do it. If meaning taking different measures, then we are going to do it. And we’re eyes huge open about what these threats seem like and we’ve put in place…
Mercedes Stephenson: But you’ve recognized about these threats for a while. We’re simply discovering out about them as a result of we’re seeing the paperwork. But you’re the minister of public security, so folks will surprise why haven’t you taken extra aggressive motion?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Well within the first case, we’re taking very aggressive motion to take care of the threats and I’ve laid out a lot of concrete instruments in order that Canadians will be assured that their elections are free and truthful, that they they usually alone decide the outcomes of it, and they are often completely assured that that’s the case. That on the subject of defending our financial system, we’re placing in further measures. In 2019, we handed Bill C-59, to provide CSIS further menace discount measure powers, however the corresponding accountability of the federal government is to be clear. And so by creating NSIRA, the National Security Intelligence Review Agency…
Mercedes Stephenson: Have you been clear with Canadians about what you understand, although?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Absolutely. By creating NSIRA, by creating the National Security Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and sure, by creating the crucial response group that may be a panel that’s made up of unbiased, non-partisan public servants who report back to Canadians overtly, transparently…
Mercedes Stephenson: And didn’t doc any threats to the election.
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: …overtly and transparently in order that Canadians can make sure that their democratic establishments are protected. That is the excessive bar that this authorities has set and that’s the excessive bar that the federal government will proceed to reside as much as.
Mercedes Stephenson: I’ve heard from each Liberals and Conservatives that it’s harmful to speak about China trying to fund interference in Canadian elections as a result of it will possibly trigger you to lose an election or lose a seat, that there’s very a lot, and it’s not a Liberal or Conservative facet essentially, that there’s a hazard to speaking about China from a political vantage of successful an election. Do you assume that that’s impeding a willingness on all sides of the political spectrum to crack down on China?
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: National safety shouldn’t be a partisan situation. This is one thing that every one events needs to be united in addressing. And that’s the reason once we discuss this, we discuss it by way of counting on our establishments, counting on non-partisan public servants, to make sure that our democratic establishments are protected. We’re counting on the assorted branches inside the National Security and Intelligence Agencies, to provide the instruments that they want, to guard our financial system, to guard our communities. And by giving them these instruments, we are able to handle the issues which were expressed round intimidation, round harassment, round potential retaliation. The authorities is there to assist all Canadians and we’ll proceed to be eyes wide-open about addressing these threats by ensuring that every one of our companies have the instruments that they want however with the corresponding transparency that’s required to be upfront with Canadians in order that Canadians can keep confidence of their establishments.
Mercedes Stephenson: We know that each our viewers and we right here at The West Block love transparency, so we look ahead to having you again once more. Thank you a lot for becoming a member of us at present, minister.
Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Thank you, Mercedes.
Up subsequent, why a former defence minister says the Chinese spy balloon and people different aerial objects needs to be a wakeup name for Canada.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: There are lots of unanswered questions in regards to the Chinese spy balloon and the three aerial objects shot down by NORAD earlier this month.
U.S. President Joe Biden is saying the three objects had been doubtless innocent. But between the spy balloon and scrambled fighter jets, tensions with China are clearly on the rise. Biden says his message to Beijing is obvious: The U.S. received’t tolerate a violation of its sovereignty.
Joe Biden, U.S. President: “We seek competition, not conflict with China. We’re not looking for a new Cold War.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Joining me now to speak about Canada’s response is former Conservative Defence Minister Peter MacKay. Peter, thanks for approaching.
Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: My pleasure, Mercedes.
Mercedes Stephenson: We’ve been watching this complete factor, monitoring it very carefully. You may see it actually escalating when it seemed for some time like there is perhaps 4 spy balloons. Now they’re saying just one undoubtedly was, however it’s a part of a worldwide surveillance program that the Chinese are conducting and there’s this sense of rigidity between China and never simply Canada however the U.S. and North America that I can’t bear in mind seeing for years. What is your tackle the state of affairs that we’re in proper now?
Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Well, I believe you’re proper. There was a second in time in all probability final week, the place it appeared surreal that there have been quite a few of those platforms—statement platforms as they had been being described, some saying UFO. It seems to be increasingly just like the proof will bear out that it was one after which others that coincidently had entered North American airspace. What made it a bit troublesome to interpret was they had been all totally different sizes, totally different areas at totally different altitudes and NORAD, after all, is tasked, firstly with defending the skies over North America, the continent. It’s a shared accountability: Canada-U.S. So one can perceive moderately why they took them down in a militaristic sense. They took them down with sidewinder missiles. It was American plane that was scrambled, though Canadian planes had been within the neighborhood. And it raises broader questions as you’ve alluded to in your opening. What does this imply for the continued tensions with China? With Russia as effectively, after all, and what in regards to the defences of North America, notably the vulnerability from the Arctic? And that’s the place, you understand, the dialogue round Arctic defences and installations; statement from the Arctic turns into actually, a crucial query.
Mercedes Stephenson: Well and I do know that that is one thing that you simply’ve been speaking about rather a lot not too long ago, and most of North America’s Arctic belongs to Canada. It’s Canadian territory. What type of skill do we now have to truly monitor and defend that proper now?
Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Very little. We don’t have trendy fighter plane, as you understand. We have some statement platforms obtainable. We, after all, don’t have even the antiquated what they used to name the DEW line, which was a collection of sensors. But we all know the know-how exists by way of satellite tv for pc. We have to have the flexibility to have extra ships there. For refuelling, we now have to have a deep water refuelling station. That remains to be below building. It will take a system of techniques, if you’ll, together with underwater sensors. All of this can be a huge funding. The present authorities has dedicated to that however over a really lengthy time period. And if something, this balloon incident, which seems to be to be overblown—pardon the pun—has put a pointy deal with what will likely be required. And I believe the Americans have a higher appreciation and maybe a little bit extra nervousness about this than most Canadians. We haven’t taken this example severe sufficient, for my part.
Mercedes Stephenson: How a lot affect does Canada have on the desk by way of making these selections on issues like shoot downs proper now? Because it appeared like Justin Trudeau and Joe Biden had been each type of saying they ordered the shoot down. Does Canada have a voice or is it the U.S. calling the pictures?
Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: We have a voice, to make sure. But on this case, make no mistake, the Americans referred to as the shot and took the shot with their plane and their missiles, which by the best way are about $0.5 million a pop. But we’re dropping face and we’re dropping that affect once we’re not upping our recreation. We don’t have trendy plane. We don’t have the ships that we want. We definitely don’t have the variety of submarines that the U.S., the UK and others have. And that’s why, frankly, we weren’t invited to the desk with this new group referred to as [00:04:45 UKUSA], which is the equal of the Five Eyes. So we’re on a downward spiral. We’re not paying our dedication to NATO with respect to the share of GDP. All of this in accumulation does diminish Canada’s voice at lots of tables.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you assume that we’re going to see extra, not essentially simply spy balloons, however these sorts of incursions from states like Russia and China in areas that the majority of us within the public hadn’t even been fascinated with?
Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Sadly, I believe it’s solely attainable, nearly anticipated. I consider the Chinese had been opportunistic on this sense and Russia will be much more so. It’s not solely the air approaches that we should be involved about, Mercedes. With the opening of Arctic waters, equally, the Russians are extra energetic, the Chinese as effectively in sending these analysis vessels by way of our waters. Russia, specifically, is recapitalizing a few of their previous navy bases on their facet of the Arctic. So that’s to say the waters that we share, as much as a sure line, the Russians are far more ready and far more armed and far more in a position. And so it will pose sure challenges to Canada, specifically, however to NORAD and North America. And the Arctic Rangers, God love them, we merely—we want far more by way of our safety of sovereignty and projection of Canadian navy functionality.
Mercedes Stephenson: Speaking of Russia, there was a Russian not incursion however kind of check of the Northern skies that NORAD stated they thought of to be among the many norm. There was an interception that occurred final week, however after all, the place Russia is most energetic is Ukraine. And a 12 months on, lots of of us didn’t assume we’d nonetheless see the Ukrainians combating. They are. The West has backed them, nevertheless it’s nonetheless very a lot a query of how that is going to end up? Do you assume that Western nations are doing sufficient to assist Ukraine and the way do you steadiness that with additionally not escalating it to being drawn in and seen doubtlessly as a combatant?
Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: I don’t assume that we, the West, are doing sufficient and I worry that that is removed from over. Russia will frequently check the dedication of NATO and the West in what they’re doing on this unlawful invasion of Ukraine. As you understand, this goes again to 2014. We’re developing on the one 12 months anniversary, if you’ll, of the true struggle on Ukraine. But it start in Crimea in 2014, and so we, the West, have been getting ready and have data of this for a really very long time. Sending in tanks, air defence techniques, all the things wanting, fairly frankly, boots on the bottom, has to proceed. This is a quintessential menace not simply to Ukraine, however to world safety and the entire order of peace on the earth. This is on Europe’s doorstep. What it has executed as effectively, Mercedes, clearly, is speed up the growth of NATO, enlargement of NATO. It has allowed Ukraine, maybe, to enter the European Union at an accelerated tempo as effectively, in an effort to take each step to push again on Russia. But it’s coming at a large price, after all, in human lives. The infrastructure that’s being destroyed on the bottom and it’s additionally having a large influence on Russia. It has blown up spectacularly on them. They’re a poorer nation. They’re a weaker nation. They’ve misplaced their skill to undertaking energy and maybe change into extra reliant, supplicant to China because of this in poor health thought out incursion into their neighbouring nation of Ukraine.
Mercedes Stephenson: Peter MacKay, former minister of defence, thanks for becoming a member of us at present.
Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Thank you, Mercedes.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up subsequent, taking inventory as Ukraine marks on 12 months since Russia’s invasion.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one last item, and this week it’s an important one. We’re approaching the one 12 months anniversary of Russia invading Ukraine. The photographs of Russian troopers advancing shocked the world and few thought {that a} 12 months later, Ukraine would nonetheless be combating. But their resolve stays sturdy. It’s been a 12 months crammed with atrocities, the systemic focusing on of civilians, the destruction of Ukrainian cities and cities and a protracted checklist of struggle crimes.
The West has backed Ukraine with phrases and weapons, seeing it because the entrance line between democracy and tyranny, nevertheless it has not been sufficient to win but. As we mark this tragic anniversary, we’ll see what extra the West is keen to provide in coming days.
Thanks for watching at present, and I’ll see you subsequent Sunday.
